1.
“What if someone does say: ‘Why should I believe anything you have to say about God? You’re a Christian, you believe in God, you’ve been influenced, you’ve been biased’. Listen that closely: notice what it’s saying? It’s basically saying ‘I will not accept any theistic arguments that come from someone who believes in God’, in other words, in someone who believes those arguments to be valid [mini chuckle]. Equivalently, that’s saying ‘I will not accept any arguments offered by anyone who does not agree with my atheistic position’. When you phrase it that way, you see how this argument is truly fallacious.”
Interesting analysis! And I say ‘interesting’ confessedly ironical because, well, there’s no argumentation going on. Rewind, rewind. So the proponent says “I say that God this and that!”, after which, the opponent says “Why should I believe this and that? You believe in God”. Unless one of them has been mislead by the forceful use of English in the phrase “…that God”, these sprightly arguers are not actually arguing about the “this and that” part, but about the “God” part. Formalizing things a little bit, it would look like this
A: G, G(a,b) [God exists and he has property a and b]
B: ?G [How do you know that God exists?]
Although the miraculous reconstruction (what follows after “Equivalently …”) would get one to think otherwise, the opponent is not, in this situation, supporting his doubts by means of asserting “You are a theist”, but merely stating the obvious: “You believe in God”. The “I will not accept any arguments offered by anyone who does not …” is fully Mr. (wait, let me check his real name) Grammastola contribution.
So the “truly fallacious” retort is not even an argument, let alone an ad hominem (because, as we will see, this is the aim of this right-from-the-fauteuil lecture)
2.
“The personal viewpoint of the person offering argument is not relevant especially if they’re trying to offer argument for their position”
Let me just copy-paste this, to make sure it’s real:
“The personal viewpoint of the person offering argument is not relevant especially if they’re trying to offer argument for their position”
It’s real. I’m not even sure how to resolve this. It feels like just restating it the third time will do the trick…
Since A, the theist, is trying to offer argument for his position, his personal viewpoint is not only at issue but it is the clickity-clack which will determine if A and B will engage in argumentation or not. It is only if A externalizes his or her position that argumentation can take place. If A says: “I say God has property a and b” , and B says: “Pfff, I won’t even bother to refute a or b because God doesn’t exist” – they both externalized their positions and it is only now that they can proceed to the subsequent (real) discussion of “Does God exist?”.
But really, aside from this irreal butchering interpretation of Mr. Grammastola’s point, is there even possible such dispute? I believe not.
- If B knows about A that he believes in God, and he is not ready to accept this, then he couldn’t genuinely start arguing, since a) there would be no common ground to start from and b) he would not expect a critical reaction from A’s part.
- If B does not know about A that he believes in God and he only finds out when A uses “God” as the subject of his standpoint, than his answer is quite legitimate: I am not prepared to accept a and b because I do not believe in “God” in the first place (?G). No fallacy.
3.
Have you spotted that? Tell me you did. It’s not just me, right? You did. It’s the never before heard of ad hominem: “ You’re ugly!” Most often, I guess, it occurs in discussions regarding the existence of God: “God loves us” “You’re ugly!”, “God exists” “You’re ugly”. Ok, back to the case.
“If being influenced or biased is sufficient grounds for dismissing someone arguments or claims than we should automatically reject any arguments that are offered by someone who admits to be a fan of prominent atheists such as Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins or Michael Sarver. Why? Because they’ve been influenced, by those authors; in fact, … they’ve been strongly influenced”
So, what Mr. Grammastola is saying is that: “If we are committed to the idea that bias is sufficient ground for dismissing a claim, than we should be committed to treating any arguments from Christopher Hitchens wannabe-s in a dismissive manner.” That either does not follow (maybe I’ll accept an argument about the best sauce for macaroni&cheese from such person) or is simply a re-statement (if “any” is “any about God”, than being a declared atheist in a conversation is not too different from being a declared Chr. Hitchens wannabe, so he’s practically saying: If theists don’t love atheists, theists don’t love Chr. Hitchens fans. Well …
Ok, let me draw a biiiiig line here. Literally.
What Mr. Grammastola is saying would be right if, in an argumentative situation, one would attack the other party of something obvious from the very beginning. If A predicates something about God, he is – in that situation – noticeably committed to believing in God. If B joins the dialogue and says “I do not agree with your claim because you believe in God” he is either terribly not paying attention, or he is actually saying: “I will not engage in a discussion about what you’ve asserted about God, because I do not believe in God in the first place” (which is an acceptable declarative in the opening stage of a discussion).
I cannot see anything fallacious in this refutation. B is being reasonable enough when not accepting A’s claim, moreover since he is not asserting anything (that a and b are false, for instance), he is just declaring his possition by means of a rhetorical question: Why should I believe a and b etc.
Tags: bias argumentation fallacy ad hominem God